AI: Jobs, Edu Policy, and Retraining (CXOTalk 299)

we hear a huge amount of AI but one of the things that we don't pay sufficient attention to is what is the impact of AI on jobs on education on the workforce and today on episode number 299 that is our topic Michael Craig's Minh I'm an industry analyst and a host of CXO talk before we continue you need to subscribe on YouTube do that subscribe on YouTube and tell your friends tell everybody you know I am so thrilled to welcome we have two guests today dr. Shirley Malcolm is with the triple a ask the American Association for the Advancement of science and as you'll hear she has had an absolutely extraordinary career and David Bray is the executive director of people centered Internet and he is the guest co-host and a subject matter expert on this topic so let me say a welcome to Shirley it's great to have you here it's great to be here please tell us about Triple A yes okay Triple A yes is as you said the American Association for the Advancement of science and a lot of people don't know leaders with the organization even though we are the largest general science organization in the world but they often know our journal science magazine and the science family of journals we run various programs that focus on education on workforce we have a program that focuses in on invention and innovation the Triple A is limos and invention ambassadors as a way of highlighting careers that involve invention and innovation and promoting entrepreneurship not just kind of regular education in the in the field so we have a broad range of things that we do in connection with education workforce at triple-a s and surely what is your interest in this issue of AI and the impact on workforce well I worry about the preparation of the next generation to be able to move into the jobs of the future I worry that in fact that whether we're giving them the education that they need whether we are providing for their parents the training that they're going to need for 21st century jobs are the skills ones that are available to them is the training available to them and I think that that is something that we all have to be concerned about because we need the people in order to be able to handle this kind of technology involved workforce thank you and David Bray welcome back to CXO talk and tell us what are you doing these days with people centered Internet no thanks for having me again Michael and it's great to be here with Shirley with the people send Internet it's a coalition that was co-founded by Vint Cerf and Mainland fun Ben Cerf being one of the people that helped make the internet come into fruition and the goal was really to do demonstration projects that measurably improve people's lives using the Internet and it was actually at an event back in April of last year that I actually met Shirley a triple a us we had a video address first by event talking about thinking about the impact of the internet and AI on jobs and education and then Sheree and I were both on a panel and I was inspired by both friend sites as well as her provocative views as to what we need to do and so I look forward to a very engaging conversation here today together on what do we need to do to prepare for the air ahead with AI okay so to begin the conversation Shirley maybe you can summarize for us what are the issues around AI and the impact the workforce technology has always made changes in the workforce and this is something that we all agreed on and but the question is what are those changes are the people prepared to handle those changes and do those changes basically fall disproportionately on certain groups when we had technology moving into the office space for example we had a lot of what was then back office work done away with because of the the PCs and what-have-you that became available and people were working very differently so there's always a fear of the loss of jobs but in that particular case it wasn't necessarily the loss of all jobs will loss of certain kinds of jobs and the reconfiguration of work so that the jobs that were there actually required more education and different kind of training and that's the kind of concern that I have right now that is how a AI is applied and which parts of the workforce are likely to be affected as AI comes online in different kinds of sectors and surely if I could follow up with that with an additional question so you talked about the need for possibly retraining do we need to even think about different ways to delivering education and training given AI and how things are changing much more rapidly that maybe a four-year program doesn't make sense and are there different ways that this can be deliver so if you could share some of your thoughts there we have to change we have to reimagine education from the totally in order to address these issues that means that you can't just think that you're going to solve this by putting somebody into a two-year training program you have got to start the end their education earlier in ways that you're not just focusing in silos that in fact that you are looking much broader in terms of interdisciplinary topics that you are using AI in terms of informing us about what educational strategies we might need to employ or what particular patterns we may see with regard to to instruction and understanding so it's it's incorporating it into education per se but it is also preparing people to deal with it as in terms of the way that we educate them so it's a it's a very multi headed multifaceted problem overhauling the entire education system obviously is not something that's going to happen overnight so how do we what are the steps that we can take to get there Shirley well one of the things that I think that we really need to do is that the teachers who are going coming into the schools need to be prepared differently in our universities so that means that you've got to back this all the way up into higher education in order to get the teachers who have the skill sets that can that they can actually use as they are working in a teaching and learning environment but it also means that you have to help I think a larger community the parents really understand that this is very different from when they were in school and it's going to require different kinds of instructional strategies and it's going to require that students are aren't just taught content which is what is it that they're taught how to think about these issues and that they're given the kind of larger skills that will allow them to continue to learn because it is going to be crucial that they continue to learn you know isn't this though how is this different from traditional liberal liberal arts that have been designed really to teach people how to think as opposed to just the the content of the information itself well I think that that partly it isn't just the expertise it's all those other skills that go along with that how do we work with other people because in this could these kinds of settings we more likely to be working in teams how do we work with how did in fact we captured the use of these tools for our own purposes it's previously technology might have affected kind of these low-end repetitive jobs but AEI is talking about affecting what would otherwise be thought of as good jobs if you have for example imaging that is being done with regard to body scan the way that a radiologist has to relate to the information that they receive a is going to be very different than previously and so I think that the that it is cool it's really rippling through the workforce and in a way you talk about the the the preparation that might be needed it's more in the form of education rather than training David I have a question for you but I just want to remind the audience that right now there's a tweet chat taking place and you can go to Twitter using the hashtag see XO talk and ask questions and contribute your thoughts to share with our two extraordinary guests so David given that it's an issue of education rather than just training what do we do put that hard question to you just destroy me a cell phone like this is sort of like build on what Shirley was saying what makes this different than how education has been done in the past and really think about is having three layers the first is the awareness of how this is changing how people interact with other people because it's going to be us interacting with AI and machine learning but then that machine learning is going to be impacting with other people as well and we're gonna see emergent behaviors that we've never seen before I mean to some degree we've already seen like how many of us either whack our computer monitor or try to shake our phone or get frustrated or refer to our phone as a he or she we an amorphous ice technology and expected to behave like humans when in fact it's not human and so I can easily see while maybe machine learning and AI will have a lot of great value in terms of the future work there's also gonna be some things that completely surprise us that are unexpected that no textbook has been written for and so preparing people to be ready for that being ready to learn I mean there's gonna be some trial and error here there's gonna be mistakes made and having that acceptance as opposed to saying you made a mistake oh you're out of a job it's like no you've got to learn this new environment in which there's no textbook so that's the first layer the second layer is the community layer because this is going to disrupt people's senses of identity their sense of purpose if you're if your previous job has now been done by a machine does that somehow make you less valuable I don't think so but that's something that's right now as so much of our identity is tied to our jobs and our roles in this country they've got a redefined purpose and then the last thing is sort of the the national picture of how do we have empathy for not just people that are going through the high school and college stages but those people that have been doing the same job for 25 or 30 years and just found that that job no longer exists we need to think about almost lifelong education delivery and that's a different model and something that some people may not necessarily find is easily accessible or we may not have the mechanism I'd like to personally see community colleges step up and play that role I think community colleges could play that role for helping with continuous education possibly employers could also play a role it's it's just gonna be such a seismic impact and Charlie mentioned this at the beginning there's gonna create a lot of frustration a lot of fear and the question is do we have a tolerance for people that can say wait wait wait we may not have all the answers but we'll try to help figure it out we may make mistakes along the way there may be abnormal patterns that we get wrong but we're trying to figure out how to deliver an education better and create a better future of work for us all now I told I totally agree one of the challenges though that I think is that we are not preparing people in terms of those issues of identity and values and things like this right now when I think about the Human Genome Project by contrast which similarly even though everybody's not running around doing every your own ad DNA or art they you it we prepared people we had a period will be talked about the ethical legal and social issues that we're going to be coming down the line with this new thing where it would be possible to know whether or not you might be predisposed to certain kinds of cancers or other kinds of diseases we had those conversations we aren't having these kinds of conversations right now with regard to AI and so that means that it's going to come as a surprise to some people that in fact that this totally changes the way you have to think about work that you can't just basically sit back and rest on the last time you were in school whatever that is it may have been a PhD but you can't in fact sit and rest on it that you have to kind of continue to learn that's hard it's not hard to a certain extent because I think that people are inherently curious and therefore it is possible to basically t-they'll up to get ready for this but on the other hand and that has to be validated it has to be validated by your employers it has to be validated by your Union it has to be validated by all of these other parts of society that right now there's no conversation about this let me ask either one of you excuse me a question so all of this I sort of large thinking about the education system and the future of Education obviously is extremely important in the long term but what do we say to people who right now are feeling the displacement their their jobs are being displaced and AI certainly only a piece of it but it's going to become an increasingly greater piece hmm well I would say as as David has said you know there is this place probably within a fairly short distance from you called a two-year college and began to kind of see what might be available there look at what might be available in terms of online opportunities there are these there are it is possible to at least get yourself back were in a position to feel like you could learn I think that then it is more a matter of fear as to why somebody won't reach out and try to take that course oh look at what have you and to a certain extent it's going to be what do you fear most being unemployed and unemployable or being willing to risk going into a new area or looking at the other possibilities with regard to a livelihood and the build on what Shirley said a hundred percent agree it is what oftentimes holds people back from going to that Community College is is fear of the I'm now back in a setting in which I don't know everything or I don't feel familiar but as Shirley framed it it's a question of do you want to have that hold you back and then eventually find that your job is no longer there or do you want to take the risk and say look I'm gonna step in the field in which I don't know everything I'm gonna learn it's gonna be an unfamiliar environment however it's gonna be paying dividends down the road towards my future absolutely and and and the other thing that I would also say is I would love to see two things happen which is way back in 2009 2010 I actually tried to tee up a proposal it unfortunately didn't get a lot of traction which is could we see either states themselves or maybe private sector organizations come up the ability where you say on an app or a website I'm currently a I want to retrain to be B what courses do I need to take to go from A to B and then help look online as to where can I get those courses that map me from going to A to B and so it's sort of like helping people chart their journey and maybe that's that's something that the private sector you can do or maybe it's something that individual states can do it can help people on the way the other thing though is also thinking about better linkages between what are at the state level and and even at the national level between what's done with efforts on the workforce and and what's done with education so that having shared goals as opposed to divergent goals to think about the future not just for United States also think about the world is all – I think that it's not just the courses to a large extent it's often what are the experiences that you provide I mean I think about the that there may be volunteer opportunities that can get you some of those experiences you may never have imagined be going into construction you may still be the construction may still be there okay but you may never have imagined going and doing that but you participate in something like Habitat for Humanity and you pick up some new skills so in the same kind of way that you can basically acquire the skills and experiences beyond what you might have been trained to do I think that we've got to figure out like maybe we're in your community to do that kind of an educational and training GPS to kind of navigate where this workforce is going I was gonna actually if you could also expand upon that so are there different ways that the education needs to be delivered beyond right now where a lot of classes are like you said you said it's about the experiences but it's not just textbook and it's no it's not just for that textbook it is basically it has to be active it has to be active learning and it has to be the focused on like problems and projects what is going on in my community you know how would I address that how would I began to to approach it what kind of questions do I ask what kind of expertise would I need and it puts the learning together in different kinds of ways that's the kind of way that you talked about preparing yourself for a very different world when in fact you're going to be interacting with machines and other people and and so on in different ways than ever before you know we have a really interesting question from Twitter kind of a depressing question from Bob Russell Minh who asks what happens when AI can learn faster than is humanly possible and some therefore maybe even thinking about the educational solution is a diversion because maybe jobs for people are simply going away and we have to look at it through that perspective no I don't think about it like that you know the thing is there are a lot of things that quite frankly that that already we have where the computer can do it faster you know Google is a lot faster than my looking at it up any other kind of way and and the the kind of of cycles per second that you can get with a machine is going to give me an answer to a complex question a lot faster that's not the point the point is what do I make of that thing that it gave me understanding what it is that I have been that has been delivered to me and I think that that we have to remember that intelligence is not wisdom and that it is often wisdom that we are looking for after we have solved whatever this problem is over here that the Machine did faster I would surely said hundred percent I think the data shows that it's gonna be replacing parts of jobs I mean right jobs will be replaced partner fully but it's gonna be replacing parts of jobs I don't think at least in the mix and I'm recognizing it's anyone who guesses as to what the future is gonna be is probably gonna be not completely correct but I think for the next two to three decades it's not going to be that jobs are replaced fully it's just the way that we work is going to change right and so you have to solve that at least for the twenty to thirty year period because if you don't and you're gonna have a whole lot of frustration a lot of angry people and maybe we already have that to a degree right now and so this is a worthwhile endeavor if only to try and figure out the next 20 to 30 years and then we can address what comes after that I do think what you can do to prepare now though is help people reframe their sense of purpose from not being tied to the job they specifically do or the work they specifically do to the benefits they provide their community whether that is your vocation or your advocation and as surely also said where can you recognize that just because you have intelligence or just because you you think something is true that is not necessarily the wisdom that is involving empathy and understanding that is much deeper than humans do but isn't it true that what most people really care about in this context is again the the simply pragmatic concern my job is at risk or I've lost my job I need to earn more money and therefore all of this talk about wisdom empathy compassion is frankly not that interesting to me what do we what do we say to those folks well I mean you are more than your job and I think that that's one of the things that a lot of people just don't focus on you are a lot more than your job and that that you find meaning through a lot of other different ways beyond your job I often talk to students and I talked a lot to postdocs they basically have put in 20-some years they've gotten a PhD they are sitting there bemoaning the fact that they cannot become their professor because the jobs may not be available and so I challenged them on that you know you can take those skills in that way of thinking and you can do lots of other things with it I mean basically I did I did not prepare myself to come into this job because I didn't even know this job existed and I think that that's the point the other part is and I this harkens back to the Triple A as limos and invention ambassadors don't just look for jobs make jobs create you know discover what people need and begin to provide solutions to those needs there's lots of options out here beyond feeling frustrated about not being able to find this job and and to amplify that Michael I think I get where people are worried about providing and having funds I mean as a new father that's one of my biggest concerns is making sure I can provide that said that may point to the larger macro picture of what we do to reassure people that you don't have to always be worrying about that that there's at least something that will help you along and then as Shirley mentioned the the invention ambassadors I do think we're getting to a world in which expecting something to be there for you may not right the case you've got to make it happen and for those that ask about well what if what will be the work of the future unless you assume that humans aren't going to have any problems and have any in the next twenty to thirty years there will always be a need for people to help solve those issues now whether you're paid a lot for it maybe not but at least there will be need for people to help solve those issues and figure out how to work through those things and so there will be work there that does get to the other question too though is how do we make sure that the benefits of a I don't go to a very few and pay them a lot and then everybody else has essentially serfs or not paid a lot and so that that is a larger economic question which is how do we make sure it brings up everybody as opposed to just a few we have a question from Twitter that I'd like to I'd like to jump into the this question that David just raised of the disproportionate benefit that may accrue through society I think it's a it's a vitally important question but we have a question from Twitter and in the spirit of stacking things surely you mentioned that your back you think that you that this job for you was unexpected and I was remiss at the beginning of the show and not asking you to just I don't want to put you on the spot but just to share your background because it's pretty extraordinary you know it's pretty crazy I was born and raised in Birmingham Alabama and as a and I am as they say of a certain age I'm over 70 and therefore if you kind of add all that together you understand that as a black female I was raised in a second Society I went to poorly resource segregated schools I got caught up in the whole Sputnik thing when Sputnik went up in 57 we look we heard about it in Birmingham and Soho we were kind of captivated with regard to the science and the things like this so I ended up going to college at the University of Washington in Seattle a long way away from Birmingham but also at that time in a very isolated kinds of settings if you know there were this room science was not necessarily something that women pursued and it there weren't a lot of african-americans around and so kind of like everywhere I subsequently went in school in graduate school and through my PhD I was not running into a lot of people who look like me I pursued the kind of when I finished I pursued the regular faculty track when I came I was a faculty member I got married I moved I went into a job as a research assistant okay and and had to totally learn again because I had not I had no knowledge of this field and so I started in as a very basic base level and essentially the rest of my career heading education here at triple-a yes work being concerned about the diversity of the workforce looking at larger issues of education policy and science and technology policy as it relates to in the investment in research and education that came and built off of having to start basically from a totally different field could I have done this job without my without having a science background without all of the other experiences that went through no way I basically had to acquire not just book knowledge but a set of experiences and interactions that would allow you to build a certain amount of reservoir of strategies that can lead you to be able to make good judgments and I think that that's the case with all of us we are not where we started and you are you're you're very modest because you didn't mention that you're also on the board of two different colleges and universities and you have a large number of honorary doctorates in addition to being accomplished in in a whole bunch of other ways I want to say why do I serve on boards I'm a region at Morgan State University which is historically black college and I'm a trustee of Cal Tech now why do I serve on boards do you know I learn a lot on boards that's it away my own professional development I can serve give service at the same time that I learn and then I can move what I learn in one place to another place and I think that that's really the way that we need to think about about work that you have the opportunity through your service and volunteer experiences to acquire skills and knowledge that then is available to you beyond what your quote/unquote paid employment might look like okay you're laying a lot of wisdom on us I love it we have a we have a question from Twitter legit David let me direct this to you arsalan Khan is asking about the issue of bias in in the datasets for AI and the impact of that on on this discussion and and maybe answer that briefly because I want to jump to this issue that you also raised earlier of the disproportionate distribution of the the benefits of Technology right so I would say they're both Shirley and I are very concerned about there needs to be more public discussions about what can we do to ensure that what machines are both being fed in terms of data and outcomes that they are making are not as biased as they could be I mean let's first face it that we all as us as humans have bias to begin with right and that that's that something that's through education and through greater awareness we can overcome some of those biases but some of it is just the more you get more experiences you see the world in a certain way and and so we have to try and make sure that if we're feeding human data into machines to teach the Machine that that human data itself is not extremely biased I mean we know there's unfortunate cases of this we've seen where past legal decisions were fed to a machine and those legal decisions or setting bail decisions weren't fair to certain demographics and then that's something that both Sheree and I worry about we know similarly we've seen apps come out where they do things that are just completely wrong where if you hit the beautify button unfortunately makes everybody's face lighter and that's wrong and that's something where the machine was taught something that was incorrect and so the way we check this I think is first recognize that we humans have biases and we will always have biases and and at the same time if we're beginning to become more reliant on AI machine learning what organizational approaches can we do to have checks and balances could it be there is a more that is responsible for ensuring that that data is diverse and that board is not just people from your company but people from the outside as well could it be there's also more that's looking at the decisions the Machine is making and saying is this ethical is this correct and is this fair and so it needs to be a larger conversation because it does tie to the other question which is AI if we're not careful could discriminate and in fact we've already seen unfortunately some pretty bad cases of it already could discriminate and could also adversely impact certain people rather than other people if we're not careful I want to just jump in there game and I talk about this all the time and I said to him I said first of all we have to have much more diversity among those who are working in AI yes okay because quite frankly you build off of your experiences and if fact you don't have diverse experiences represented in the community that is actually developing this you can forget it from the beginning you're feeding and you're baking in bias okay and so the notion that somehow you are just not going to be able to deal with this unless you unless the feel has diversity within it unless the attention to diversity is baked into the decision-making that we will go on about it and there you there you need diversity among the people who are making the decisions you know I look at the at the companies that are here and I look at the companies are working in and they do not look like me they do not look like me they do not they are not reflecting the things that I might care about you know because I see I can see a time for example when through convenience we will have facial recognition technology in at the airport and I will get stopped 30 times more than somebody else does you know we said quite frankly as much as I travel I don't like that idea you know it is in fact I think we are setting all of this up that's one side of the setup for bias the other side of the setup for bias is that it's a way that these base these things these algorithms the stuff what is coming into them I mean we already see problems with regard to sentencing parole decisions mortgage decisions I mean it goes on and on and on what more do we need in the way of examples to tell us that we have a problem here that in fact is going to be solved and it's not necessarily going to be solved by the same people who gave us the problem really good point really good point so there there must be connections between what you've just been describing and the the outcome one of the outcomes one of with we'll be the poor distribution or unfair distribution of of the the wealth that is a give the economic benefit that accumulates as a result of the transition of our society and economy to AI so any thoughts on that and how to and what to do what are one of the concerns obviously is that of what are the target areas what are the sectoral areas and who is working in those by the all the demographics that we basically know about right now a lot of dangerous and more dangerous and more repetitive things are being done by particular demographics and so I think being aware of the fact that we have to not only be attentive to that but we also have to look at the issue of what is it going to take in terms of quality education and the distribution of quality education to begin to address this so that the populations that are now getting less of everything they need in order to benefit from this new this new workforce and AI within the workforce are not once again kind of disadvantaged by having the areas where that in that are open to them targeted as a place to really go after first so it's like you're being slammed from both sides and I think that we have to really have a discussion about this as a as a country as as states as as localities and we have to talk about what is it going to require for it for everyone in order to be able to gain from this and then Michael to build on that without surely saying John Rawls was a philosopher in the middle of the 20th century who talked about what he called the vale ignorant which is we don't know who we are going to be born as and the moment were born whether we're male-female are race whether we're privileged or non privilege situation that colors what we perceived to be just and skews it and so what he asked is what would we agree to or were born and what what he made the case for his first that we everyone has maximum Liberty as long as their liberties don't impinge upon the liberties of someone else and then to even more importantly to the point of education that there's an equal opportunity for advancement for everybody and this gets to education which is if the people that are being trained on machine learning and AI are unfortunately all are white males that's a bad thing because the benefits from AI and machine learning will not be equally opportunities for everyone and so this is a case where you do need to make the case for more diversity in the ability to provide that training and education and it's not just the education on AI machine learning itself it's going to be the second area in the third area fields that come from this right but make sure that everybody has at least regardless where they came from so you know I mean Shirley's background is amazing in how she she experienced everything make sure everybody has the opportunity and that there's not one advantage given to one group versus another to help create the future ed Shirley we're we're just about out of time so I want to ask you and and David as well when I ask you for advice to certain groups and let's start with your advice to technology companies who are very much my constituency right those are the very much the people who who I talked to what advice do you have for for those folks there are a lot of folks who do care well you know frankly a lot of them don't but there's a lot who do and I think most do so what advice do you have for those folks my advice to the technology companies is do everything that you possibly can to make sure you have a flow of diverse and talented people they don't those are not either-or people coming in to work and to be able to ascend to the highest levels so that they are in fact among the decision-makers look at your boards look at your advisory groups be able to bring in difference in this particular case diversity can help you think your way through and think through better solutions so really come at us we have a program for example looking at students with disabilities okay and we have to try to provide them with internship opportunities we have had a heck of a time getting people to be attentive to the fact that we can provide them with talented students who they can employ during the summer but they can in fact build loyalty within those students who might then be willing and interested in coming to them for a job and bringing their skills with them so I think that this this notion is not just what you say is what you do and I've got to watch your behavior and in this particular case if we're not bringing those groups and we have a problem and David your thoughts on this issue let's let's start with advice to tech companies sure for the tech companies is that it's been shown multiple times that actually having a diversity of people in terms of experiences backgrounds actually is beneficial to decision making of the group and so for those who care that probably resonates for those who don't care you can actually make the point that you'll actually get a better ROI with more diversity and a better bottom line yeah exactly and so I share that because as Shirley mentioned if you're not getting that diverse group of people in terms of the experiences everything of that and again it's it's saying that they'll see things differently to have different lenses and they'll bring better things from that and recognizing she mentioned you know people with different abilities I think the stats are any one of us one in four of us in our lifetime will develop some sort of disability and so it could be all of us and so we need to stand up and say this is something that is good for the community good for your organization better bottom line and this is what you can do and like she said it's it's not what you say it's what you do and so that's often times harder for people to see but maybe we can start to get more good news stories about what people are actually doing behind this and actually begin to recognize and reward that okay and so now finally oh I you know I should mention that I I had on this show one of the very top executives of ADP which is one of the largest payroll companies in the world HR talent management I mean every two weeks yeah and and his comment was on their based on their research that diverse teams is a hugely important factor in ultimate success but surely let me turn back to you and and let's end and then is David the same question advice for the government for Policy policymakers what advice do you have for them I think that we really need to think through not just the training but maybe we need to think through our tax structure now you know if I am required to go to school what does that speak to with regard to being able to take a deduction so if my job changes okay but what if I have to if I need to get education for what my job is going to become not necessarily go into a different job but the job I have is going to become something very very different how do I think about being able to capture the expenditure that I might need to make in order to do that and I think that there are questions about whether loans are available for less than for less than full time enrollment I mean there's lots of policy things that can be done that can be looked at structuring the the payments in different kinds of ways there's all kinds of things that I think that we can look at to see if we can make it easier for people to get retrained and I mean Michael I'll take that question from a slightly different lens which is in addition to thinking on the policy side what can we do on the education itself to maybe align their incentives to helping you find your next job and one tangible thing that might be is is there a way that programs if you get accepted might say look you don't pay us anything upfront but after you finish this two-year program or maybe even just a six-month installment of a program once you go out to your job you will pay us a percentage of your salary for certain prints nth person of time and so nobody has to put any money upfront but it really is about aligning to make sure that they're educating you that's something that gets you a job and it also helps a person say I don't have to put money up front but I can pay it when I actually get that job they can pay it forward and so I'd love to see that happen and see if an educational institution wants to do that there may be other ways to that you align the incentives of both the institution that to basically support lifelong learning versus just point-to-point installment learning but one of the things I should tell you is that the noise program for example at the National Science Foundation provides scholarships for teachers in exchange for their work in high needs schools so there are some things there are some models that are out there and I think that we need to look at them I agree I think we need more of that exactly and then we've done it in the past we did it with scientists we've done it with many years this is probably something we need to think about for AI – which is how can we get you that training and then help you get that job right okay well we're at a time but this has been a very important show I'm very glad that we have the record of of this conversation to share with people it's been an extraordinary show you have been watching episode number 299 of cxo talk and we've had two amazing guests dr. Shirley Malcolm is you need to just just search for her on the web and just see her her her bio is with the American Association for the Advancement of science and David Bray is a longtime CIO and now executive director of people centered Internet and I want to thank you both so much for being here Shirley I hope you'll come back and do this again another time yeah I love – thank you Mark Star thanks for doing this and with that I want to remind everybody to subscribe on YouTube and just be sure to tell all your friends and go to see EXO to calm because we have lots more coming your way have a great day everybody thanks so much bye-bye

1 Comment

  1. When you talk about AI impact on people jobs and workers in the future I feel that I have some valuable thing to share but afraid that you will shun it. So, first I thought only to sent my website link on my theory but than I decided also to send a brief summery of it which is in the following.


    In my opinion, the rapid progress in the AI ROBOT automation resulting in massive job loss INFACT; provides the great historical opportunity that the humankind has been waiting since its beginning. To emancipate from the drudgery of human labor. The SERVITUDE, enslavement, humiliation that the majority of the population compelled to undergo by the minority in order to earn their living i.e. wages, salaries or income. Now, with the progress in the AI technology we can gradually get rid and finally abolish the human labor for wage system and replace it with an equitable income sharing system. It can begin with the Unconditional or Guaranteed Income popularly known as the Universal Basic Income or the UBI.

    My book titled “An Alternative to Marxian Scientific Socialism: The Theory Reduction in Working Hours (RWH); ….” Published in the year 1981. Today I rename it as Zero Work Theory (ZWT) More of its details in the links,

    The gist of the theory is; “Labor” or work is the compulsion on humans (originally imposed by nature) to obtain their means of subsistence. The "human labor relation" is the ROOT-CAUSE OF EXPLOITATION on man by man. It results it all kinds of subjugation, injustice, inequality and corruption in the hitherto human society.

    According to the RWH Theory, the AI ROBOTS are the EMBODIMENT of the mankind’s million years of historical struggle, technological endeavor, and dream to overcome their labor/work for SURVIVAL. Now it had culminated into complete replacement of the human labor, jobs or employment.

    Its first stage began with the early humans primitive tools used as the replacement of their body, limbs in their day to day work for survival. It reached many levels of mechanical development and sophistication continued for hundreds and thousands years of ancient to medieval history. The second stage began at around 18th century with the advent of steam engines electrical motors merging with the machine tools popularly known as the Industrial Revolution . It most importantly replaced the human muscle power in the human labor equation with the unimaginable inanimate energy force unparalleled in the history. These machine tool although able to do the hard labor of hundreds of thousands of workers nevertheless always needed the humans intelligent brain cognitive power to perform, conduct the given work or duty.

    The third and final stage began with the advent of Semiconductors or the microchip revolution. The Exponential growth of the microprocessors started the era known as the Artificial Intelligence. The 21st century AI robots automation started rapidly replacing humans (biological) intelligence with its human brain like neurological machine deep learning algorithms. AI today is getting far more superior to the humans biological brain in the performance of all human work. Its cognitive learning ability can supersede any intelligent human brain enabling the robots to render every “paid” human labor completely redundant or obsolete.

    Now, the only way to progress towards the mankind’s destiny is; A Gradual Reduction in Working Hours aiming towards the complete abolition of the Wage labor i.e. jobs. However, considering the failure or stagnation of the reduction of working hour movement in the last decades and the present worlds rapid AI exponential technological progress and disruption, I realize that a guaranteed Basic Income or the Equitable Universal Basic Income fulfills the final objectives of the RWHT. Nevertheless, my views on the UBI not the same as many of the UBI proponent, who see it as mainly as an incentive to the poor workers to work more productively with the additional income and to supplement to their wages. I argue UBI needs to act as a complete replacement to the wage-labor. “UBI SHOULD ALLOW THE PEOPLE TO BECOME ECONOMICALLY INDEPENDENT, TOTALLY FREE FROM THE DRUDGERY OF WORK, OUT OF THE SERVITUDE, HUMILIATION OF WAGE-LABOR IF THEY WANT. This will also encourage a substantial portion of the laboring population to quit their jobs, which will positively result in the increase in the employment, wages thereby further rapid AI automation in the entire industry. The recommendation of an adequate amount of UBI without having the compulsion of wage-labor, mean ZERO WORK for the individuals which can achieve the overall Reduction in Working Hours in the society, thefinal GOAL of the RWH Theory. So now I prefer the name “Zero Work Theory” (ZWT). I have explained more about this theory in my blog.

    The principle behind the ZWT is that the fruits of the progress in the science and technological in the human society should not be appropriated or concentrated in the hands of only a few but it is their historical responsibility and every people concerned, to see to it that the benefit should be equally shared among all members of the society IN ABUNDANCE. This is inevitable future, the elite class should understand what is coming, whether they like it or not.

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